American Modern vs. Hagerty at 2x Price - Page 3 - Vintage Mustang Forums
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post #31 of 61 (permalink) Old 07-10-2019, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by GT289 View Post
I used to appraise damaged vehicles for American Family so I have a deep, deep distrust of insurance companies.
You wouldn't believe the stuff that goes on in insurance companies daily attempts to "weasel" out on claims.....
Or maybe you would.
I have all my policies with American Family (home/auto/business,etc...) and my agent has always helped me out in times of need.
My car is under restoration and needs to be insured here pretty soon.
I spoke with my Am. Fam. agent and he told me they offer collector car insurance at an agreed upon value. Unlimited miles a year as long as you have another primary vehicle.

Do you know anything about their policies for classics? Anything I should specifically ask or look out for in the underwriting?
Appreciate any input..thanks in advance.

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post #32 of 61 (permalink) Old 07-10-2019, 01:35 PM
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In Texas StFarm would only offer me a stated value policy with very restrictive driving @ about twice of what Haggerty wanted or a regular comprehensive policy for 3-4X per yr.
Let us know what yours say, some in CA seem to get good deals from SF in their state.



I talked with my insurance people this morning - It seems that much of what you experience, may depend on the individual office / agent, as much as it does anything else.



For the antique / classic coverage, State Farm looks for use for parades, shows, less than 1,500K miles per year...BUT...it seems the interpretation and application of what constitutes as a show or valid mileage, falls to the agents office. My agent told me that they are, somewhat liberal, in how the interpret the stipulations. 4000 miles per year back and forth to work, would not be ok, but if I'm creeping up on 2000 and using the car on "nice days" regardless of where I was actually going, that wouldn't pose a problem. I have a long relationship with this office, so I tend to believe what they say, and my agent didn't seem concerned at all with my sub 2000K use for most any purpose, provided its not a clear violation...i.e. If I've insured a classic truck, and it turns out I'm using it to haul aggregate for my business.



In terms of agreed value versus stated value: Stated values is what I have on my classics, and according to my folks at State Farm, its true that the stated value does not automatically get paid out in the event of a total loss - which is the same as most any other conventional policy. The stated value is really only for setting the premium, and to act as a starting point for underwriting / payout in the event of a total loss - but in all cases the office would evaluate the local market - which apparently includes forums, clubs, etc, to determine payout. None of my cars are super rare, number 2 cars, or anything where I've invested the GDP of a small African nation in restoration - so none of them are going to demand top-tier valuations for me to be adequately compensated. I confirmed underwriting performs an initial review of the stated value to make sure they are comfortable at that value, and since I know I am middle-of-the-pack in values, it doesn't seem like it would be a challenge to validate whatever value I've indicated. The actual language is something to the effect of: Legitimate value in the local market, as priced within the last 30 - 60 days, of a vehicle in similar condition and same make, model and equipment level.



In terms of "under restoration" insurance - I have my 57 Chevy insured that way, and although it is perfectly capable of running down the road, I just don't drive it that much and it has been undergoing some modifications, so State Farm has it insured for comprehensive only, no liability, so not insured for driving, but would be covered if a tree fell on it, or rodents destroyed the interior, or the shop burned up. Costs me $2/mo.



So ...to sum up..... I still have no idea which insurance is best, but it seems your insurance agent and the tenure you have with them, might make a difference.



P.S. - If I were to convert my '69 mustang to a conventional policy, but all else being the same (coverage, values, etc) it would cost me an additional $300/yr or $50/mo
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post #33 of 61 (permalink) Old 07-10-2019, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Treozen View Post
None of my cars are super rare, number 2 cars, or anything where I've invested the GDP of a small African nation in restoration - so none of them are going to demand top-tier valuations for me to be adequately compensated.
The amount of the valuation in and of itself isn't the issue. You can have a vehicle that's not rare (mine's not) and still not be fully compensated for the loss. Let's say you had a classic driver that was appraised at $15k. If it's totaled you probably aren't going to get that for it under a stated value policy. Realistically you could get half of what it's really worth. The way they'll determine the value has nothing to do with the actual value of your classic in the market as a whole. Under a stated value policy the likelihood of being fully compensated for your classic regardless of pedigree or condition is slim.
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post #34 of 61 (permalink) Old 07-10-2019, 04:48 PM
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The amount of the valuation in and of itself isn't the issue. You can have a vehicle that's not rare (mine's not) and still not be fully compensated for the loss. Let's say you had a classic driver that was appraised at $15k. If it's totaled you probably aren't going to get that for it under a stated value policy. Realistically you could get half of what it's really worth. The way they'll determine the value has nothing to do with the actual value of your classic in the market as a whole. Under a stated value policy the likelihood of being fully compensated for your classic regardless of pedigree or condition is slim.

Respectfully disagreeing, to a point.



On Valuation: The amount of the valuation is an issue, where and if the owner has determined an unreasonable value, because it leads to inflated expectations and the belief that the insurance company is swindling them, when the reality may be that the insurance company is closer to the real-world value. Example - I could decide that since my '69 is one of only 503 '69 mustangs with this color and trim combination, that its "rare" and therefore worth more than the average Grande Coupe. I could also decide that despite a few minor issues, its basically "fully restored" (its not). I may also really, really love my car and without even realizing it, add a few thousand in value simply because "its always been a great car and everybody loves it" - before you know it, I'm telling State Farm its worth $22,000. State Farm looks at that value and decides, ....ok...sure....could be, and if I want to pay a higher premium on $22K......sounds fine them them. BUT THEN....disaster - Godzilla attacks Tokyo and my '69 gets totaled (why was it in Tokyo in the first place...but I digress.....). So I call up State Farm and expect my $22k, only State Farm does what most insurance companies do - they perform a market analysis. That analysis suggests that like models of the same year, equipment group, trim and evident condition have been averaging $13,000 for the last three years (according to Hagerty's data), and that even number 2 cars ( regional show winners with barely a flaw) have not cracked $21,000 over that same time period. State Farm also looks at local sales and club pricing and validates that the real-world value of my car is somewhere in the 12 - 15k range, and since I haven't bothered to get an appraisal, they decide to pay me out on $13,500 ($700 more than Hagerty's #3 car assessment). So I expected $22,000 and I'm only getting $13,500. The question though, is am I being swindled out of $8,500, or is the Insurance Company simply delivering a reality check? (no pun intended). If I really look objectively at my car, and do a proper assessment of my own, I'm going to know its not worth $22,000 - no matter how much I want want to think so. I'm going to realize its probably worth $14,000, and the insurance company would have a really hard time finding like examples in my market for less. So if State Farm offered $13,500 - it would be pretty darned close.



I think whether you get "fully compensated" or not, is directly linked to whether your idea of "fully compensated" was realistic in the first place.



On value determination for payout: There is ample data out there to accurately argue true market value, data that is challenging to refute and from multiple credible sources. Their are however, no such guardrails for owner opinion. Do I think insurance companies try hard to reduce payouts? Yes. Will they look for every advantage that enables a reduction? Sure. But, do I think a stated value that is realistic in the market is likely to be halved? No. Whenever I provide a value, its always based on my own market research - I want to know what the insurance company will look at, and I want to know what I'll point them to in the event I need to argue my case. Sometimes its a disappointing exercise - that car you love, all the work you've put in, all the accolades it gets at shows...and yet....its worth all of $10K. You need to be dispassionate, logical and set aside any emotional attachments. The insurance company will evaluate the local market, clubs, forums sales and auction records (like those from Hagerty) and try find a value they can live with - but if you've done your homework and used effectively the same resources, you should either come out close to the same price point, or at least be well armed for a negotiation. The insurance company (state farm in this example) has a stated practice of evaluating the market, sales and local prices to determine actual value - whether that "actual value" aligns with the owners "perceived value", based on their love of the car and 4 episodes of Barret Jackson, is not really the insurance company's responsibility.

Last edited by Treozen; 07-10-2019 at 04:52 PM.
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post #35 of 61 (permalink) Old 07-10-2019, 07:51 PM
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I think whether you get "fully compensated" or not, is directly linked to whether your idea of "fully compensated" was realistic in the first place.
There is nothing to agree or disagree about I'm explaining the differences between the two policy types. Even if you got a solid appraised value from a knowledgable source and your car was indeed worth that under a stated value the insurance company would not be legally obligated to compensate you for that amount. It doesn't matter what value you put on it as in the end it's the decision of the adjuster and underwriter and not necessarily what the vehicle is really worth.

That's why serious collectors buy only agreed value policies.
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post #36 of 61 (permalink) Old 07-10-2019, 09:32 PM
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I had J.C. Taylor for like 25 years..and they were very good....but majorly lacking way behind in the technology department even STILL today....A few years ago, I tried to renew with them, and I like to pay online which is convenient for me.... but no, J.C. Taylor takes personal checks only...(Today, It's still the same)...How stupid...Do they even realize that this is the 21st century?!?? Maybe they should look at their calendar... so I just put my two classics under my Umbrella policy at Progressive... One payment.....pays everything in 2 seconds.... I have no complaints.. Progressive is a great company! My main company years ago was Geico, but they screwed me over in 2005 when they would not pay for a $450 windshield that was broken...and was covered...so I said "See ya!"....Been with Progressive ever since... Definitely a quality Insurance company...I'd recommend them to anyone.

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post #37 of 61 (permalink) Old 07-10-2019, 10:20 PM
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I had J.C. Taylor for like 25 years..and they were very good....but majorly lacking way behind in the technology department even STILL today.....

I have much the same complaint with State Farm - absolutely no online access to anything. It good that I can call, but if I need anything at all its a phone call to get it done, even a simple question about rates or coverage.
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post #38 of 61 (permalink) Old 07-10-2019, 10:48 PM
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Considering my C10 is pretty much stock, just lowered with a different engine (factory I6 truck with a 350 now), I put it back to "stock".
That makes your truck modified.

If you have an accident the insurance company will decline your coverage.

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post #39 of 61 (permalink) Old 07-10-2019, 11:35 PM
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There is nothing to agree or disagree about I'm explaining the differences between the two policy types. Even if you got a solid appraised value from a knowledgable source and your car was indeed worth that under a stated value the insurance company would not be legally obligated to compensate you for that amount. It doesn't matter what value you put on it as in the end it's the decision of the adjuster and underwriter and not necessarily what the vehicle is really worth.

That's why serious collectors buy only agreed value policies.

I have no issues with your contrast of the two insurance policy types, where I am pointing out a difference in perspective is that 1) in my opinion, the amount of the valuation absolutely is, or can be, a key issue as it relates to payouts for Stated Value policies - owners tend to over value their assets and expect more than the market will bear, and 2) I do not agree that insurance company determination of the value has nothing to do with the actual value of your classic in the market, because on the assumption the insurance company in question uses standard industry-accepted practices, their valuation is absolutely leveraging market values - whether market values meet owner perception, is another topic.



I don't dispute the relative merits of stated versus agreed-to value, nor disagree that insurance companies will work hard to undervalue your property.



As it relates to agreed-value policies, I'm exploring the options now, I've sort of been on auto pilot where insurance is concerned and with several cars now, its probably time to take a more critical look....much as I love my State Farm people.
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post #40 of 61 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 10:54 AM
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That makes your truck modified.

If you have an accident the insurance company will decline your coverage.
Nope. The drop was achieved with springs and a 327 was available, everything was done with stock GM 67-72 parts (aside from the springs).

Straight from Hagerty:

https://www.hagerty.com/insurance/cl...ified-vehicles

Quote:
Modified vehicles: Street Rods and Replicas

The degree to which your vehicle is modified and the types of modifications determine whether it fits our program.

Characteristics of modified vehicles include:

  • Significant performance increases
  • Structural alterations to body/chassis/frame
  • Custom paint job worth $10,000 or more


Replicas:

Replicas or reproductions should duplicate vehicles that are no longer in production, such as the 1950s Porsche Speedster and the 1920s Mercedes Benz Roadster. The quality of construction for these vehicles can vary significantly, so we take a close look prior to offering insurance.
My truck and Mustang are safe to call "stock"

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Last edited by 65 Pony; 07-11-2019 at 11:11 AM.
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post #41 of 61 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 12:34 PM
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Nope. The drop was achieved with springs and a 327 was available, everything was done with stock GM 67-72 parts (aside from the springs).

Straight from Hagerty:

https://www.hagerty.com/insurance/cl...ified-vehicles

My truck and Mustang are safe to call "stock"

That's great to know - I was thinking about switching to Hagerty, but having trouble deciding what qualified as "modified".
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post #42 of 61 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 01:46 PM
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What it boils down to is how much you'll need in order to replace a car if it gets totaled, and how much you're willing to pay for said coverage.



If you can walk away from a totaled car - insured for $25,000 - with a check for $15,000 (and not feel ripped off), kudos to you. Me, myself and I insure my cars based on real-life replacement cost, sentimentality notwithstanding. If it would cost me $35,000 to replace a car, including any upgrades/mods/what have you, you better believe I'm insuring it at an agreed value for $35,000.
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post #43 of 61 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 03:10 PM
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Nope. The drop was achieved with springs and a 327 was available, everything was done with stock GM 67-72 parts (aside from the springs).

Straight from Hagerty:

https://www.hagerty.com/insurance/cl...ified-vehicles

My truck and Mustang are safe to call "stock"



So just to add on to this, I just got done talking wit Hagerty about stock versus modified. The basic premise was that if the vehicle has been modified to exceed the performance capabilities for the same vehicle of that year, then is "modified", but "upgrades" to safety (brakes, belts, etc) are not considered modified regardless of in-year availability. Here are the examples I gave:


1) My '69 mustang. If I change the stock equipment to include dual exhaust, a 4-barrel carb, larger wheels - is that stock or modified: Hagerty response = Stock, mostly because that equipment was available in '69, on a mustang.



2) 78 Corvette - same size engine, but not the same one it came with. (350) - but engine has performance upgrades - heads, cam, etc. Otherwise, its factory correct. Hagerty response = "Its Modified" primarily due to the engine horsepower modifications, even though larger engines were available in similar years, and even the L82 in '78 had more horsepower than the stock L48 my car came with, its still modified.



3 - 57 Chevy. Came with a 283, now has a basically stock 350, different interior (not fancy, just not stock) dual exhaust. Hagerty response = Modified, again, because 350 engines were not an option in '57.



4 - '68 Coupe Deville Convertible - Disk brakes, electronic ignition. Hagerty response = Stock. Brakes are a safety item, so not counted the same, and the other modifications don't materially alter performance.





Also, despite the claim that Hagerty is unlimited use, they quoted all my vehicles at 2,000 miles per year. When I mentioned more miles for the Mustang and Corvette, and that I'd be taking them to work once in a while, they had to adjust the quote to account for that, giving 4,000 miles to each car and noting the use for work occasionally. So it seems there is a little more nuance to Hagerty's restrictions than the website would suggest.
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post #44 of 61 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 03:18 PM
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I have no issues with your contrast of the two insurance policy types, where I am pointing out a difference in perspective is that 1) in my opinion, the amount of the valuation absolutely is, or can be, a key issue as it relates to payouts for Stated Value policies - owners tend to over value their assets and expect more than the market will bear, and 2) I do not agree that insurance company determination of the value has nothing to do with the actual value of your classic in the market, because on the assumption the insurance company in question uses standard industry-accepted practices, their valuation is absolutely leveraging market values - whether market values meet owner perception, is another topic.

I don't dispute the relative merits of stated versus agreed-to value, nor disagree that insurance companies will work hard to undervalue your property.

As it relates to agreed-value policies, I'm exploring the options now, I've sort of been on auto pilot where insurance is concerned and with several cars now, its probably time to take a more critical look....much as I love my State Farm people.
It sounds like you haven't talked to a lot of classic car or truck owners over the years. If you had, you would have heard many nightmare stories from people who had their classic vehicles insured with Stated Value policies and lost their shirts. I first heard of this problem when someone T-boned my cousin's 1960s Ford pickup. It was really nice. I don't recall the actual value at the time; not a fortune, but had he put it up for sale, it would have easily fetched a nice price. So, when it was totaled, the insurance company pretty much said, "Well, an old truck doesn't have any value. But since we're such swell guys, here's a check for $1,000". That's how it can go with a stated value policy. We the customers have no idea how the insurance company will determine value. They might pick up a Kelly Blue Book, not find any entry for your car and assume that means it has no value.


A Stated Value policy from a classic vehicle insurer is typically not expensive. As mentioned, where you live is a significant factor. But the annual premiums are typically less than you pay a conventional insurer for a stated value policy.

Oh, and why do I go with Hagerty? Well, I like their customer service. I don't care who their underwriter is. The underwriter doesn't provide customer service. In my case, Hagerty offered a very good rate for a very nice policy with no mileage limits. I have asked them every way from Sunday about mileage limits and use limits and they assured me every way from Sunday there aren't any. Also, I have talked to multiple classic vehicle owners over the years who filed claims with Hagerty and had very positive experiences. Does that mean they're perfect? Certainly not.

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post #45 of 61 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 03:21 PM
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Also, despite the claim that Hagerty is unlimited use, they quoted all my vehicles at 2,000 miles per year. When I mentioned more miles for the Mustang and Corvette, and that I'd be taking them to work once in a while, they had to adjust the quote to account for that, giving 4,000 miles to each car and noting the use for work occasionally. So it seems there is a little more nuance to Hagerty's restrictions than the website would suggest.

Yeah, that's weird. Hagerty never even mentioned a policy with mileage limits. My policy has a zero deductible. When I asked if I coule get a lower rate if I increased the deductible to $500, the result was a savings of about $5.00 a year. So, what's the point? Seems where you live makes a LOT of difference.

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