American Modern vs. Hagerty at 2x Price - Page 4 - Vintage Mustang Forums
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post #46 of 61 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 03:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Treozen View Post
I do not agree that insurance company determination of the value has nothing to do with the actual value of your classic in the market, because on the assumption the insurance company in question uses standard industry-accepted practices, their valuation is absolutely leveraging market values - whether market values meet owner perception, is another topic.
Those are insurance industry standards and not classic collector standards. You're conflating insurance value, collector value and replacement cost. Standard insurance and collectors use similar but different methodologies. For example a restoration that includes NOS wiring harnesses and a full complement of period proper AMK fasteners throughout the entire vehicle all with the proper finish and profile isn't going to matter on an insurance company valuation. It will for a collector as long as the rest of the car is up to snuff. If I've replaced my cowls and floor the insurance company valuation isn't going to take that into account. A collector will. If I have all original cores with proper casting numbers the insurance valuation isn't going to take that into account. A collector will.

Once you get some more time and experience in the classic world these things will become apparent. Classic car values aren't based on the metrics that insurance companies primarily use. Things like what other cars in your area are worth, what others have sold for or what others have paid for claims have no bearing on the value of a specific collector car in the collector world. The collector universe is worldwide and not dependent specifically on your local market. On a classic the value weighs more on rarity/pedigree and the ability to match a day one car. The replacement value on a refreshly restored Fastback could easily approach (and often exceed) six figures. Most of that labor. You won't get that vehicle replaced were it to be totaled under a stated value policy. That's why we buy agreed value policies.

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post #47 of 61 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 03:47 PM
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They might want to go and check their own website about the mileage...

Quote:
Our policy allows occasional pleasure use with no fixed mileage restrictions**. With Hagerty, you can go for a weekend drive, take your vehicle up to the local ice cream shop or attend unlimited events and cruises.
And the asterisks:

Quote:
** Occasional pleasure use does not mean use for daily driving to and from work or school, routine shopping, etc.
https://www.hagerty.com/insurance/classic-car-insurance


I'd also like to add that Hagerty has SERIOUSLY changed their policies of the last +/-5 years. It wasn't that long ago they would not sell policies to anyone under 25 (now there is no age restriction), zero work use ("occasional" drives acceptable now), and a locked garage was a 100% requirement (now "outside" is acceptable in what I'm told was areas with low auto theft and low chance for damage - tornadoes/hail, etc). I'm sure if you fit any of these new categories they charge a bunch more.

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1967 Chevrolet C10 350/700R/3.73
1968 Pontiac Firebird 400

Last edited by 65 Pony; 07-11-2019 at 03:54 PM.
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post #48 of 61 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 04:19 PM
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They might want to go and check their own website about the mileage...

And the asterisks:

https://www.hagerty.com/insurance/classic-car-insurance


I'd also like to add that Hagerty has SERIOUSLY changed their policies of the last +/-5 years. It wasn't that long ago they would not sell policies to anyone under 25 (now there is no age restriction), zero work use ("occasional" drives acceptable now), and a locked garage was a 100% requirement (now "outside" is acceptable in what I'm told was areas with low auto theft and low chance for damage - tornadoes/hail, etc). I'm sure if you fit any of these new categories they charge a bunch more.

Does this mean I am now allowed to take the Mustang to commute from time to time? I wouldn't use the Mustang as my daily driver, but maybe once per month would be nice.
Has anybody called Hagerty to confirm this?


Thanks!



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post #49 of 61 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 04:26 PM
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When I called to add my firebird a year ago I asked about that and was told (your mileage may vary) occasional drives to work were OK as long as it wasn't used for work (like using your 68 F100 to haul a load of sand bags to a job site).

We do half days on fridays, so I take the Mustang or C10 in on nice fridays once or twice a month.
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2011 Mustang 3.7L Premium Pony Package
2015 Silverado 5.3L 2LT DC Z71
1965 Mustang C Code Coupe 289/T5/3.25
1967 Chevrolet C10 350/700R/3.73
1968 Pontiac Firebird 400
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post #50 of 61 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 05:42 PM
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Does this mean I am now allowed to take the Mustang to commute from time to time? I wouldn't use the Mustang as my daily driver, but maybe once per month would be nice.
Has anybody called Hagerty to confirm this?


Thanks!

Yes, I called Hagerty about use. The rep clearly stated, "We want you to drive your Mustang." Occasionally driving my Mustang to work is fine as long as it's not my daily driver. The only situation in which my Mustang is not covered is when I drive it on a track.
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post #51 of 61 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 05:50 PM
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Those are insurance industry standards and not classic collector standards. You're conflating insurance value, collector value and replacement cost.

No, I'm not. Aside from the fact that "classic collector standards" as used here do not exist as a codified entity of any sort whatsoever, the entire premise of the quoted comment, and its predecessors, is based on insurance valuation for a "not anything special" generic classic car - not insurance values for a #1 / concourse-level restoration, or anything approaching the same. You can't change the context of the discussion and align the commentary to an entirely different level of the hobby / lifestyle and then assert a conflation of terms. Your example, while valid in isolation, would not readily apply to the type of classic cars I was using as the basis for the discussion - which as you may recall - was specifically not rare, middle of the pack in value, would not demand top tier value in the event of a loss and at best would rank as a number 3 car - which in the interests of being precise, means "vehicles drive and run well, but might have some incorrect parts, may have visible flaws or less than perfect chrome, but condition is balanced with perhaps a very good interior. "Good" is the one word description of a #3 vehicle". Such a vehicle would readily apply to standard market valuation, using sales data and trending over time to arrive at an insurance value - which may or may not satisfy full compensation from the perspective of the owner. I agree with your general commentary, but you've allowed the scope of your rebuttal to creep well beyond the initial subject - we're now talking apples and oranges in terms of the type of vehicle that's in scope.






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Once you get some more time and experience in the classic world these things will become apparent.


That I don't agree with your commentary seems a poor basis for you to make such a vastly unsupported assumption about my experience. Not that it should matter, but I have collected, restored, bought, sold, modded, hot-rodded and driven classic cars for several decades. I've had cars that are stock and modified, sometimes I had a ton invested, other times I barely had $2 in my pocket and my classic car was my only car. I've done everything from complete interior restoration to swapping engines into cars that where never supposed to go together. I've owned (and own) Chevy, Ford, Jaguar, over 14 or so different classic cars over the years - I just don't go about forums advertising as such. The presumption on your part that not sharing your opinion is somehow analogous to "lacks experience" is rather disappointing, and in a general sense, spoils what may have been an otherwise copacetic and instructive difference of opinion.



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post #52 of 61 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 05:55 PM
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It sounds like you haven't talked to a lot of classic car or truck owners over the years. If you had, you would have heard many nightmare stories from people who had their classic vehicles insured with Stated Value policies and lost their shirts.

Admittedly so , yes. I haven't paid as much attention to the classic insurance space as I should. When I started all this, most of my cars were a hair above the crusher, and I enevr really bothered to reassess, except to tell State farm what thw new value was.



I'm looking at Hagerty - so far they seem the best, its just hard to pull my cars out of a 20+ year relationship with State Farm.
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post #53 of 61 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 06:42 PM
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GRUNDY. couldn't pay me to use another.

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post #54 of 61 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 06:51 PM
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GRUNDY. couldn't pay me to use another.

I've read a lot of good things about Grundy...every have a claim with them?
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post #55 of 61 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 07:26 PM
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I've read a lot of good things about Grundy...every have a claim with them?
Yes, I was having a car moved from SEMA to LA National Roadster show and the carrier driver decided to use my car to go out on the town since it was the bottom rear car. Of course he wrecked it, and the carrier fought the claim. Grundy took care of having my car repaired (and it was around $25k) and collected from the carrier. No questions asked.
I can call them and let them know I'm building a car and they will approve the agreed price with Pics...the 62 corvette for Barrett Jackson was covered for 225k with 4 pics and a "build" sheet. They have been good to me, and I'm sure I am not alone. Rates are I. Line with anyone else out there...

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post #56 of 61 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 07:47 PM
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That I don't agree with your commentary seems a poor basis for you to make such a vastly unsupported assumption about my experience. Not that it should matter, but I have collected, restored, bought, sold, modded, hot-rodded and driven classic cars for several decades.
That's all well and good and I'm glad you enjoy the hobby. Seriously.

The manner in which you post and the questions and observations you have made can lead someone to believe you haven't been around the classic car world that long. There's nothing wrong with that. Everyone has to learn somewhere. Classics are their own little niche out there with all the other little niche segments of the automotive world.

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post #57 of 61 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 11:55 PM
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The manner in which you post and the questions and observations you have made can lead someone to believe you haven't been around the classic car world that long. There's nothing wrong with that. Everyone has to learn somewhere.

I've never owned a Mustang before, and when I join a new board or forum, I don't kick the door in and try impress everyone with what I know - its rude, and, usually not a particularly good way to get to know the players and members. Every forum has its own personality and sometimes members that have established their "turf"on subjects - so I accept my role as the new guy, and I contribute where reasonable, until I've build credibility and reputation enough to have earned the "right", if you will, to wade into more subjects. On this forum, I'm a new guy with 29 total posts, but search out the most comprehensive disk brake conversion guide ever written and published for the 1963 Thunderbird (google, its hosted now by a third party) and you find me as the author. You could do similar searches on Corvette forums and Jaguar forums, though its been a while, and find me a generally well-respected contributor - that yes, sometimes has view that differs from other members, though I like to think I keep it above-board and constructive.



The point though, I guess, is that I'm not here convince anyone of anything, or look to establish my credentials as a collector (which I'm not, I have a collection, but that's not the same as being a collector). I've established reliable reputations on most forums where I've been a member, and I've never tried to tailor my posts or responses to illicit any particular status or notoriety.

I'm not really sure my 29 posts are a sufficient basis to asses my questions and observations as they pertain to the entirety of classic car word, we have after all, really only talked about insurance, which is sort of sad really...... so many posts dedicated to payments to mostly nameless firms that kick you out if you actually use the service. ....

Last edited by Treozen; 07-12-2019 at 12:09 AM.
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post #58 of 61 (permalink) Old 07-11-2019, 11:57 PM
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Yes, I was having a car moved from SEMA to LA National Roadster show and the carrier driver decided to use my car to go out on the town since it was the bottom rear car. Of course he wrecked it, and the carrier fought the claim. Grundy took care of having my car repaired (and it was around $25k) and collected from the carrier. No questions asked.
I can call them and let them know I'm building a car and they will approve the agreed price with Pics...the 62 corvette for Barrett Jackson was covered for 225k with 4 pics and a "build" sheet. They have been good to me, and I'm sure I am not alone. Rates are I. Line with anyone else out there...

Hmm, ok, I'll check them out then. Seems that almost all insurance companies have their share of complaints, so I guess you just need to do your homework as best you can, and make a call.
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post #59 of 61 (permalink) Old 07-12-2019, 07:09 AM Thread Starter
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So I've decided to go with Hagerty over American Modern even though they're more expensive. I did get Hagerty's price down a bit by removing a couple of the extras I didn't realize were on there. Main reasons for my decision are:

- Plenty of stories of good experiences with Hagerty and hard to find a bad one
- Lots of bad reviews of American Modern on Yelp, and even though most of those are related to homeowners or renters insurance, I didn't get a warm feeling from how hard of a time people seemed to have getting to talk to a person. Also hard to find good reviews.
- Technology - American Modern's website is junk
- Customer Service - Everyone I've talked to at Hagerty has been great, while I have been very underwhelmed with everyone I've talked to at American Modern
- I feel pretty confident I'll be OK with Hagerty, and while I would probably be OK with American Modern, I just don't know. So what's another couple hundred bucks a year for peace of mind.

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2) 78 Corvette - same size engine, but not the same one it came with. (350) - but engine has performance upgrades - heads, cam, etc. Otherwise, its factory correct. Hagerty response = "Its Modified" primarily due to the engine horsepower modifications, even though larger engines were available in similar years, and even the L82 in '78 had more horsepower than the stock L48 my car came with, its still modified.
This is different from what they told me 2 days ago for my 68 Mustang. Original engine was a 2 barrel 289 and it now has a 300hp 302 crate engine. Also added power disc brakes, a/c, electronic ignition. They asked about things like modified body / frame, custom paint job, and power adders like a supercharger, none of which I have. They said it's stock because a 302 was available and the car was available with similar or more horsepower.

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Also, despite the claim that Hagerty is unlimited use, they quoted all my vehicles at 2,000 miles per year. When I mentioned more miles for the Mustang and Corvette, and that I'd be taking them to work once in a while, they had to adjust the quote to account for that, giving 4,000 miles to each car and noting the use for work occasionally. So it seems there is a little more nuance to Hagerty's restrictions than the website would suggest.
As I understand it, it's unlimited use in that if you tell them 3k miles, they are not going to hunt you down and check your odometer every month and deny a claim if you drove it 3200 miles in one year (I actually asked them basically that question). But they do want to know roughly how much you drive it and increase the premium if you drive it more because more time on the road equals more risk. This isn't all that different from normal car insurance - I save money on my daily driver policy because I don't really put a lot of miles on my car.

1968 Coupe, 289 / 4 Speed, Her name is Penelope, Penny for short
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post #60 of 61 (permalink) Old 07-12-2019, 03:41 PM
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Nope. The drop was achieved with springs and a 327 was available, everything was done with stock GM 67-72 parts (aside from the springs).

Straight from Hagerty:

https://www.hagerty.com/insurance/cl...ified-vehicles

My truck and Mustang are safe to call "stock"
As someone who is "in the business" I believe you are wishing your vehicle to be "stock".

It is my opinion you have a modified truck.

Since the 350 was not an available engine you have increased the performance level. That makes it modified.

Since you have changed the suspension characteristics that makes it modified.

It's no skin off my nose. Just trying to help you. I think you need to disclose your modifications fully and let the insurance company determine how "they" view it.

Paul
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