Denso Starter..What's the Throw and What's the Go? - Vintage Mustang Forums
 
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-19-2019, 10:09 PM Thread Starter
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Denso Starter..What's the Throw and What's the Go?

The FPA headers dictated the need to ditch the original to the car since new side post "Ford Starting Motor", the last original part that went round and round on my Mustang that I haven't replaced. I wanted to use an original Ford starter and posted on it but the reply's were confusing at best. Talking to Stan at FPA it seemed the Powermaster starter was the most popular option so I bought one. Dang weirdest starter I've ever seen! Not sure what's what's the throw and what's the go?
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 12:44 AM
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Easiest thing to do is wire those two posts together and connect the cable from the solenoid to the large post.....(that will work because itís NOT a PMGR starter.....)
The large post is the main power, the small is the activator.

There are other ways it can be done, but as mentioned above thatís the easiest. I have one of those starter types in my car and itís worked that way for ten years, maybe more.

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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 04:23 AM
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That is a typical PMGR starter used by the majority of car and equipment manufacturers. Chrysler switched to them after many years of their big bulky gear reduction starter. The bottom half of the starter where the wires go is the solenoid which pushes the gear into the starter. The old ford style was all mechanical and operated by the motor spinning. The right side of that casting houses the gears for the gear reduction. Motor size and gear reduction vary depending on application usually around 4-1 and usually pull around 50 amps or so vs an old direct drive field winding starter pulling around 100 amps.

It has the typical wiring not the goofy ford remote solenoid (which does have some advantages). Your battery cable goes to the large one and the small one is the solenoid wire. The only problem you may have is if you are still running points you will not get the other terminal to feed full battery voltage to the coil during starting.

The only problems I have had with those starters is when the motors are placed in a position that puts the drain tube pointing up. Water tends to get in there from splashing or condensation etc and the brush plate will rust and cause the brushes to get stuck and not move and at first will crank slower then not at all.


Whatever you do don't drop it on anything hard like concrete or hit it with a hammer as you can break the magnets which are old style ceramic and then it's garbage.


Addition. Yes you can wire it as already mentioned but you are adding another set of contacts which results in higher resistance and another point of failure due to having the solenoid on the starter and a relay on the fenderwell. Best practice is to eliminate the original relay but that means a longer battery cable or splicing the two old ones and lengthening the wire from the old relay position to the solenoid on the starter.

Last edited by elcam84; 07-20-2019 at 04:27 AM.
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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 09:38 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the reply's! I'm going to just jump the terminals together for this driving season and maybe ditch the solenoid when I try to clean up all my added wiring over the winter.

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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elcam84 View Post
That is a typical PMGR starter used by the majority of car and equipment manufacturers. Chrysler switched to them after many years of their big bulky gear reduction starter. The bottom half of the starter where the wires go is the solenoid which pushes the gear into the starter. The old ford style was all mechanical and operated by the motor spinning. The right side of that casting houses the gears for the gear reduction. Motor size and gear reduction vary depending on application usually around 4-1 and usually pull around 50 amps or so vs an old direct drive field winding starter pulling around 100 amps.

It has the typical wiring not the goofy ford remote solenoid (which does have some advantages). Your battery cable goes to the large one and the small one is the solenoid wire. The only problem you may have is if you are still running points you will not get the other terminal to feed full battery voltage to the coil during starting.

The only problems I have had with those starters is when the motors are placed in a position that puts the drain tube pointing up. Water tends to get in there from splashing or condensation etc and the brush plate will rust and cause the brushes to get stuck and not move and at first will crank slower then not at all.


Whatever you do don't drop it on anything hard like concrete or hit it with a hammer as you can break the magnets which are old style ceramic and then it's garbage.


Addition. Yes you can wire it as already mentioned but you are adding another set of contacts which results in higher resistance and another point of failure due to having the solenoid on the starter and a relay on the fenderwell. Best practice is to eliminate the original relay but that means a longer battery cable or splicing the two old ones and lengthening the wire from the old relay position to the solenoid on the starter.
Pretty sure that starter still uses a field coil. If it was PMGR once the engine was running it would act like a generator enough to keep itself energized leading to self destruction if wired like I said to wire it. Good point about the drain.

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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 08:37 PM Thread Starter
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I got the starter installed twice after modifying an old box end wrench because the top bolt is almost completely in-accessible because the starter itself is in the way! Had to put some 90's in the wrench so you could turn it from the transmission side of the bell housing. Sneak attack from the back. The starter would not disengage when I tried to start the car so I had to pull it back out and install the supplied shim. I wouldn't recommend this starter if you have FPA headers because of the upper bolt goofiness. I think a more traditional mini starter would be better.
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65 C Code hardtop from California still wearing it's original paint.
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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 08:48 PM
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Why did you choose to use one of these instead of a Ford PMGR starter? Just curious. ND starters are generally quite robust and of good quality, such has been my experience with them anyway. So I've no doubt one would be a fine choice. But why go with one INSTEAD of a Ford starter? Is there some advantage?
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 09:01 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by GypsyR View Post
Why did you choose to use one of these instead of a Ford PMGR starter? Just curious. ND starters are generally quite robust and of good quality, such has been my experience with them anyway. So I've no doubt one would be a fine choice. But why go with one INSTEAD of a Ford starter? Is there some advantage?
I wanted to use a Ford PMGR starter but never got a consensus on a part number or year and model that I should use.

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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by gregb View Post
Pretty sure that starter still uses a field coil. If it was PMGR once the engine was running it would act like a generator enough to keep itself energized leading to self destruction if wired like I said to wire it. Good point about the drain.
Without tearing it open it's hard to tell. They used allot of 4 pole and 6 pole magnets in their PMGR starters and there are versions with field windings. Problem is they all look alike from the outside. Most I have torn into were PMGR.


Yeah I have had those starters with the clockable motor and the only way it would fit is upside down with that silicone drain nipple pointing up and that brush plate will rust like nothing else. A marine sealed version would have been better when used upside down...
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Nailbender View Post
I wanted to use a Ford PMGR starter but never got a consensus on a part number or year and model that I should use.

I don't recall seeing your question about this subject but it's pretty simple. Do you have a 157T or 164T flywheel?
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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-20-2019, 10:18 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by awhtx View Post
I don't recall seeing your question about this subject but it's pretty simple. Do you have a 157T or 164T flywheel?
I believe I had a thread on it. It's done now.

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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-21-2019, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by awhtx View Post
I don't recall seeing your question about this subject but it's pretty simple. Do you have a 157T or 164T flywheel?

Looking at the picture of his original starter, he would need the starter for the 157th flywheel/flexplate - AKA the long throw "automatic" starter. Application would be a '93 F-150 5.8L automatic.


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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-21-2019, 09:01 AM
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Looking at the picture of his original starter, he would need the starter for the 157th flywheel/flexplate - AKA the long throw "automatic" starter. Application would be a '93 F-150 5.8L automatic.

Actually just about any application from the 90's will work on the 157 tooth flywheel. I'm using a $30 junk yard PMGR. I asked for a 95 Mustang V6 T5, works great. The PMGR starter that came with my 97 GT40P looks slightly different. It has a extra wing or support that tests on exterior of the block plate. That fits fine too. I didn't use that because it was nasty looking caked in mud. I did a post on this.

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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-21-2019, 09:21 AM
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Boy those are pricy starters, I like it as an alternative to running a hot wire from the trunk for the PGMR starter but definitly gotta pony up for one!

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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-21-2019, 12:45 PM
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DB Electrical is popular place for VMFers to buy PMGR starters. I took a quick look there and it appears the choices for our V8 cars are essentially either manual transmission or automatic. Being a junkyard prowler I don't actually shop there but for those that do, is that correct?
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