Tremec Transmission help - Vintage Mustang Forums
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-12-2019, 02:44 AM Thread Starter
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Tremec Transmission help

I am getting tired of my AOD, first and second gear are so close together that 2nd is nearly useless, 3rd is a massive leap from 2nd causing slower acceleration than I would like and every time I want to accelerate on the highway it shifts out of OD and into 3rd. Adding on, the OD band is notoriously weak and now I have lost OD after only a month with my new engine (less than 500 miles). Has shift kit and lock up converter, so I tried to make it "more fun."

Cruising through forums I've seen a few people have made the switch to a T-56. Sounds nice having 6 gears and 2 ODs. But when looking into specific parts required for the swap I don't find much. I am having a hard time finding specifics such as:

1. transmission mount (part #?) same as AOD trans mount?
2. whether the t-56 must be out of a mustang or could it be out of an F-body? Could the more robust TR6060 be used with correct BH?
3. hydraulic clutch setup? Would that interfere with a dual diaphragm brake booster?
4. driveshaft length and yoke type? Same as AOD?
5. other small details I may need to know?

I understand some people have needed to use adjustable engine drop mounts while others have not.

Some of you may say to go back to a c4 or c6, but I enjoyed having OD too much and I do DD this vehicle whenever I can. And I am tired of the AOD, IMO it falls on its face in 3rd gear ~55mph though this car isn't a slug.

I ask about either a t-56 or TR6060 because I am using a pretty stout 408w (estimating ~550 hp/ft pds) I know the T-56 may need upgrades to withstand that much TQ, any suggestions on upgrades if I go that route?

Any help or links to forums I may not have found would be greatly appreciated!
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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-12-2019, 07:52 AM
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4r70w from a 98-03 V6 mustang would bolt right up, give you better ratios, and should be able to stand up behind your 408. You'd have to get a trans controller but you could lose the tv cable. Not trying to dissuade you from going manual, but with what you already have a 4r70w swap would be an easier and less expensive option.
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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-12-2019, 08:55 AM
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Second the upgrade to a '98+ V6 4R70W. No TV Cable, non-synchronous 1-2, 2-3 shifts, converter lock-up in 2nd, 3rd and 4th... much heavier duty. A "win-win".
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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-12-2019, 09:24 AM
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[QUOTE=1968Stallion;10235392]I am getting tired of my AOD, first and second gear are so close together that 2nd is nearly useless, 3rd is a massive leap from 2nd causing slower acceleration than I would like and every time I want to accelerate on the highway it shifts out of OD and into 3rd. Adding on, the OD band is notoriously weak and now I have lost OD after only a month with my new engine (less than 500 miles). Has shift kit and lock up converter, so I tried to make it "more fun."Your experience is very similar to what we had also. we had an AOD and I bought a custom converter from Lenny at Ultimate and a custom valve body from Lentech to try and make the car more "fun". Even with a 3.80 rear gear, it was not what I wanted. After 2 seasons I finally decided to ditch all that and go to a T5Z with a hyd. clutch. Never been happier. You are making a bit more power than we are but we do have a 347 with alum heads /intake combo. I know another auto would be n easier swap but really, my swap was not a big deal and looking back, I could of done it over an easy 3 day weekend. I dealt with MDL for my kit. HTH's.

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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-12-2019, 09:39 AM
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I'm running a 4R70W behind my 347 with no issues....but at your horsepower levels, you won't be able to just get a used one out of a V6 mustang (like I did) and get any longevity.

If you want an automatic...you'd have to go with a built version of it (many vendors have them), which would make it a more expensive swap by a long shot.

That being said, as an owner of BOTH a 4R70W Mustang and an AOD Mustang, I can tell you the 4R70W does fix all of the problems you complain about which are notorious in the AOD. The TCS allows you to adjust shift points to throttle and speed settings anyway you want. Mine even allows me to have a couple of shift strategies stored I can toggle between.

Another swap I'd consider at this point would be to jump all the way to a 6R80. I don't know that anyone has put one behind a windsor in a vintage car though...and I've searched. You can buy a TCS for it, you can buy an adapter plate...but if it will actually fit the car and still leave room for your exhaust, I don't know.

The only reason I'm fixated on automatics here is personally I can't really drive a stick for long distances anymore due to knee issues. And that's not just me. I saw 2 car programs on Velocity last week that both were basically taking performance cars with manuals and refitting automatics because the owner thought they wanted a manual and then couldn't live with the car after they actually bought it. One was a high end 70's Trans Am build, one was an AC Cobra. Both owners paid for a manual and then paid again to have an automatic installed.

The new automatics are getting really good. The 4R70W is a great transmission and I have to believe the 6R80 is even better. I'm actually picking up a 2020 explorer later this week. I'm very curious WHY a car could possibly need a 10 speed automatic. I'll have to report back on that later.

Phil



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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 09-12-2019, 10:03 AM
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If you are still set on a 6 speed, I have a close ratio T56 Magnum going in my '67. I bought everything from Modern Driveline except the trans cross member. I made one from a TCP kit. You will need to use drop motor mounts, I think they are from Ron Morris. You will also need a Quicktime bell housing. Clutch is hydraulic using a Tilton TOB and the MDL clutch linkage The transmission tunnel will need to be raised about 2" and widened about an inch on the right side. Also nice to have is a Bowler transmission controller, it includes a reverse lockout and an electronic speedo interface. Without the controller, the T56 Magnum can be shifted into reverse while going forward. Makes for a good show at the cars and coffee but not so good for the gear box
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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old Yesterday, 02:52 AM Thread Starter
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looking at the 6r80 I am having doubts that'd fit without some major tunnel work, the thing is massive! Although that would be really neat.

I will likely be salvage yard hopping next week so I'll see what is available whether T-56, TR6060 or 4R70W.

I know the T-56 and TR6060 having 2 over drives (and available .50:1 OD on some models) would complement the 3.73 rear I have, but what about the 4R70W? What RPM would I be looking at around 80mph? I know there's calculators for this but there is more than just tire height and gear ratio when calculating rpm at a certain speed. I just wouldn't want another 4-speed if it runs much more than 2.5k rpm at ~80mph. Someone here I'm sure has real world experience with 4R70W and 3.73.

Once again, does it matter if the Tremec is out of a Ford, Dodge or Chevy for the swap?

I was drawn to the idea of a T-56/TR6060 because a buddy of mine had an LS3 swapped/T-56 trans/3.73 rear in a heavy 1st gen CTS-V and could cruise at 80mph at less than 2k rpm! But if that truly involves tunnel surgery (I thought it didn't on 67-68?) then that kills it for me

Going back to the 4R70W topic, what is that stand alone unit like for you HoosierBuddy? When you say adjusts shift points does that include:
max rpm before up shifting
how many gears it drops with throttle percentage
when it shifts at part throttle
how does it know what your throttle percentage/load is without a TV cable like the AOD?

I am curious because 98-03 mustangs are super common in my local salvage yards. But why a v6 mustang? are 4R70W from a gt or pickup not any stronger?

Apologies for the bombardment of questions, but I'd much rather not want to switch transmissions again

*side note, I forgot to mention this is a 68 coupe
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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old Yesterday, 02:53 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks to everyone that has responded so far, this has been some good information!
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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old Yesterday, 04:12 AM
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Even the V6 4R70W can handle a lot of power. It's a good choice because even at 'high mileage', they never have much wear on them. If I were you, I'd go to Baumann Engineering's site and read about the 4 speed Ford automatics, and why the 4R70W is such a great choice. Going to a C4 would be a compromise for you, since you DO drive out on the road. It's an amazing transmission, but of course you only get three gears. Considering how much tire smoke I could make with my 302, even with 2.80 rear gears, I still wonder if I need 4 gears anyway.


Basically, the 4r70W is tougher than any AOD (unless you want to ditch the lockup torque converter), better gear ratios, shifts better, lasts longer. 'Nuff said. Sadly, the AOD and it's better younger brother are a lot heavier than a C4, too. I'm sure the enhanced acceleration from a lower 1st gear would make it worth having though. If you do run an AOD or a 4R70W, make sure you go to a lightweight (aluminum or carbon fiber) driveshaft though. Running a higher numeric rear gear to get the most out of your transmission will spin the steel driveshaft into some really bad harmonics. Best case, you get vibration, and worst, it comes loose while you're doing 80.

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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old Yesterday, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1968Stallion View Post

Going back to the 4R70W topic, what is that stand alone unit like for you HoosierBuddy? When you say adjusts shift points does that include:
max rpm before up shifting
how many gears it drops with throttle percentage
when it shifts at part throttle
how does it know what your throttle percentage/load is without a TV cable like the AOD?

I am curious because 98-03 mustangs are super common in my local salvage yards. But why a v6 mustang? are 4R70W from a gt or pickup not any stronger?
Starting at your last point first: The 3.8 V6 shares the same bellhousing configuration with vintage small block Ford's. The 4.6 bellhousing, which is integral to the transmission case, will not match up with a SBF...so you can't use it.

I'm using one of the old Baumann TCS's and have been for 10 or 15 years at this point and it's been trouble free. The same company now makes the US Shift line of Transmission Controllers. Mine is programmable via laptop, but I believe the new ones may not even require that. Essentially you set your shifting strategy any way you want it based on shift curves. It sounds complicated, but it isn't and it allows you to fine tune throttle upshifts and downshifts based on speed and throttle position.

The unit gets vehicle speed through the transmission's VSS.

The unit gets throttle position via a throttle position sensor. When I started with a carburetor, I had to fab up a mount to work with my Holley. Now they can sell you that. Possibly directly from US Shift. If they don't sell it...they certainly can tell you where to buy it. After I switched to EFI on my car, the Baumann unit gets the throttle position from the EFI's included TPS.

The TPS is just producing a 0-5 volt signal based on where your throttle is. You actually want it to be putting out about 1 volt at idle and go to 5V at or near WOT.

Finally...I'm running 3.55's on my '65. It seems about perfect. But you would only be pulling 5% more revs than me at all speeds....so I don't see how that would be a deal breaker.

Phil



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post #11 of 13 (permalink) Old Yesterday, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1968Stallion View Post
I am getting tired of my AOD, first and second gear are so close together that 2nd is nearly useless, 3rd is a massive leap from 2nd causing slower acceleration than I would like and every time I want to accelerate on the highway it shifts out of OD and into 3rd. Adding on, the OD band is notoriously weak and now I have lost OD after only a month with my new engine (less than 500 miles). Has shift kit and lock up converter, so I tried to make it "more fun."

Cruising through forums I've seen a few people have made the switch to a T-56. Sounds nice having 6 gears and 2 ODs. But when looking into specific parts required for the swap I don't find much. I am having a hard time finding specifics such as:

1. transmission mount (part #?) same as AOD trans mount?
2. whether the t-56 must be out of a mustang or could it be out of an F-body? Could the more robust TR6060 be used with correct BH?
3. hydraulic clutch setup? Would that interfere with a dual diaphragm brake booster?
4. driveshaft length and yoke type? Same as AOD?
5. other small details I may need to know?

I understand some people have needed to use adjustable engine drop mounts while others have not.

Some of you may say to go back to a c4 or c6, but I enjoyed having OD too much and I do DD this vehicle whenever I can. And I am tired of the AOD, IMO it falls on its face in 3rd gear ~55mph though this car isn't a slug.

I ask about either a t-56 or TR6060 because I am using a pretty stout 408w (estimating ~550 hp/ft pds) I know the T-56 may need upgrades to withstand that much TQ, any suggestions on upgrades if I go that route?

Any help or links to forums I may not have found would be greatly appreciated!
Considering the T56 was used in the Viper, its unlikely to need upgrades to handle that torque...depending on which version of the T56 you buy(the Magnum is the way to go)

3. hydraulic clutch setup? Would that interfere with a dual diaphragm brake booster?

The answer to this will depend...if you buy someone else's modified pedal and use its firewall location hole...probably so. However, that doesn't mean you cant modify your own pedal and pushrod attachment point allowing you to place the master further out(or run a master inside the car for that matter).
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post #12 of 13 (permalink) Old Yesterday, 10:50 AM
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I also run a 4R70W. Mine is behind a stockish roller 5.0. I also know there's a member here running an unmodified 4R70W behind a supercharged, modified 5.0 so they'll hold up pretty well. Mine is from an 01 v6 mustang and I'd recommend that if you go the 4R70W route that you find one from 01 to 03. The 98 to 00 ones are good but ford made some changes to the trans internals in 01 that made it a little stronger. The 04 and up don't have provisions for a speedometer cable.

I use the USshift (baumann) quick 2 controller. Since mine is mainly a cruiser I didn't need all the bells and whistles that come with the quick 4 or 6. Here's a pretty good video that explains how to change shift points and firmness with the shiftware software that comes with the controller

You can change the firmness via just the controller, but I've found that it's easier to just create a shift table with the software and copy it to the controller. With the quick 2 I can have two different tables loaded on the controller at once and switch between the two by turning the knob on the controller. I believe that the quick 4 and 6 allow four different tables on the controller. The software came with 3 different baumann supplied shift tables for the 4R70W. They're for 5k, 5500, and 6k rpm wot shifts.

As far as highway speeds, I run 2200 rpm at 75 on the highway with 25 inch tall tires and a 3.00:1 rear gear. I believe the aod and 4R70W have the same .7 overdrive gearing so whatever rpm you run in overdrive now should be the same with a 4R70W.


Early 65
1998 5.0, fitech efi, holley in tank returnless pump
4R70W transmission with USShift quick 2 controller
3.00:1 8" open rear end
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post #13 of 13 (permalink) Old Today, 01:29 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the responses. I will be totaling up total cost v benefits for both a t56 and 4r70w. I know 4r70w will be cheaper, but if I find a killer deal on a t56 magnum I may go that direction.
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